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helvetius:
How old was Shadow when he "died" in American Gods? (The tap to Shadow's forehead, remember?) He started out as a 32 year old man. Jesus died when he was 33.
Just wondering if the only reason why Jesus did not make a guest appearance in the book is due to the parallel between Wednesday, Shadow and Loki and the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
What do you guys think?
My response:
It's an interesting theory...
(I remember Neil saying that he wrote scenes with Jesus, but that they didn't fit.)
It's postulated that the reason Christianity spread so easily through the Nordic regions was the similarity to Christ's dying on the cross and Odin's sacrifice on the World Tree. Odin's son Balder was also killed (by mistletoe; a traditional symbol of Christmas), and his gentleness and so forth reflect Christ more than Odin's cunning. In fact, one of the predictions of Ragnarok was that Odin's son Balder would be resurrected, and worshipped in Odin's place in a new age and a new land. If we see Balder and Jesus as one and the same, this has certainly happened.
I'm confused as to why you point to the tap on Shadow's forehead as the point where he died--Shadow died on the tree, like Odin and Jesus before him. He was resurrected by Eostre; like Jesus was (broadly and semantically speaking). The resurrection at Easter actually predates Jesus, as well. The god rising again at springtime when the earth comes alive again is an old mythic idea. Even Persephone's decent into the underworld was heralded by new growth as she came above again at springtime. Adonis (the Hellenic form of a Semitic word 'Adon', meaning 'Lord') is another sacrificial god whose worship predates Christianity--he's another god who spends a third of each year below, with Persephone, who'd fallen in love with him. The beginning of the two thirds of the year he spends with Aphrodite is also the beginning of spring. Shadow certainly has a pair of underworld maidens looking after him--his dead wife, and Bast, the cat goddess.
When I read American Gods, Shadow's death on the tree paralleled Odin's mythic death rather than Jesus' (although admittedly Laura could be seen as a Mary Magdalene figure). The three women at the base of the tree were the Norns, who decided the fate of men and gods. Correct me if I'm wrong (I can't find my copy [of American Gods] to save my life), but doesn’t Shadow have a drink from the three women before he ascends the tree? Odin sacrificed one of his eyes in order to get a drink from the Well of Knowledge, before sacrificing himself to himself on the World Tree.
In conclusion, I do agree with what you’re saying to an extent, though I wouldn't include Loki in the pattern and limit it to Christianity. I'd say that Odin and Shadow form the father-son duo common through myth--Odin and Baldur, God and Jesus, and so forth--and that Shadow’s death carries echoes of gods' deaths before him. But to say that Jesus didn't appear because of Odin, Shadow and Loki being the representations of the Holy Trinity, is limiting it to one story when lots are being represented.
I so could have written that better, had I been able to find my Nordic mythology book, adn my copy of American Gods. It's frustrating having to rely on memory and not be able to refer to a text. I had to rely on more general mythology books and websites, and that's just frustrating.
Yes, I know I'm a geek. Shutup.
Although what I find interesting is that in The Monarch of The Glen, the new American Gods short story, we find out that Shadow's real first name is Balder.
helvetius:How old was Shadow when he "died" in American Gods? (The tap to Shadow's forehead, remember?) He started out as a 32 year old man. Jesus died when he was 33.
Just wondering if the only reason why Jesus did not make a guest appearance in the book is due to the parallel between Wednesday, Shadow and Loki and the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
What do you guys think?
My response:
It's an interesting theory...
(I remember Neil saying that he wrote scenes with Jesus, but that they didn't fit.)
It's postulated that the reason Christianity spread so easily through the Nordic regions was the similarity to Christ's dying on the cross and Odin's sacrifice on the World Tree. Odin's son Balder was also killed (by mistletoe; a traditional symbol of Christmas), and his gentleness and so forth reflect Christ more than Odin's cunning. In fact, one of the predictions of Ragnarok was that Odin's son Balder would be resurrected, and worshipped in Odin's place in a new age and a new land. If we see Balder and Jesus as one and the same, this has certainly happened.
I'm confused as to why you point to the tap on Shadow's forehead as the point where he died--Shadow died on the tree, like Odin and Jesus before him. He was resurrected by Eostre; like Jesus was (broadly and semantically speaking). The resurrection at Easter actually predates Jesus, as well. The god rising again at springtime when the earth comes alive again is an old mythic idea. Even Persephone's decent into the underworld was heralded by new growth as she came above again at springtime. Adonis (the Hellenic form of a Semitic word 'Adon', meaning 'Lord') is another sacrificial god whose worship predates Christianity--he's another god who spends a third of each year below, with Persephone, who'd fallen in love with him. The beginning of the two thirds of the year he spends with Aphrodite is also the beginning of spring. Shadow certainly has a pair of underworld maidens looking after him--his dead wife, and Bast, the cat goddess.
When I read American Gods, Shadow's death on the tree paralleled Odin's mythic death rather than Jesus' (although admittedly Laura could be seen as a Mary Magdalene figure). The three women at the base of the tree were the Norns, who decided the fate of men and gods. Correct me if I'm wrong (I can't find my copy [of American Gods] to save my life), but doesn’t Shadow have a drink from the three women before he ascends the tree? Odin sacrificed one of his eyes in order to get a drink from the Well of Knowledge, before sacrificing himself to himself on the World Tree.
In conclusion, I do agree with what you’re saying to an extent, though I wouldn't include Loki in the pattern and limit it to Christianity. I'd say that Odin and Shadow form the father-son duo common through myth--Odin and Baldur, God and Jesus, and so forth--and that Shadow’s death carries echoes of gods' deaths before him. But to say that Jesus didn't appear because of Odin, Shadow and Loki being the representations of the Holy Trinity, is limiting it to one story when lots are being represented.
I so could have written that better, had I been able to find my Nordic mythology book, adn my copy of American Gods. It's frustrating having to rely on memory and not be able to refer to a text. I had to rely on more general mythology books and websites, and that's just frustrating.
Yes, I know I'm a geek. Shutup.
Although what I find interesting is that in The Monarch of The Glen, the new American Gods short story, we find out that Shadow's real first name is Balder.
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 05:48 am (UTC)Err, at least _I_ think it is. Maybe that's just my geekness showing though ;-)
On a related note, I thought that the bit in Top Ten 2 where Baldur got killed in a brawl at the Gods bar was great, with Loki, the mistletoe etc :)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 05:52 am (UTC)I love Norse Mythology. *strokes it*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 06:50 am (UTC)Funky :)
It rocks overall as well of course, but the modern day stuff is extra nifty.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 07:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 08:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 10:44 am (UTC)I remember looking at one of those discussion boards and someone said something about how they figured out Shadow's real name... but said name was never mentioned...
Also wonder about Shadow's ethnic origins... son of Odin... some conjectured that Shadow might be partly Amerindian... and it's revealed that his mother died of complications due to sickle-cell anemia... hm.
I'm still trying to figure out the identity of the "forgettable" god in the charcoal suit in Vegas... I thought Hades... someone on some site suggested the "forgettable" god was actually a Hindu god?
Where's this Monarch of the Glen?
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 10:48 am (UTC)Monarch of the Glen is in the book Legends II, edited by Robert Silverberg. It is copiously stocked at my local Borders at the moment, as it's comparatively new, so you shouldn't have any problem getting your hands on it.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 10:52 am (UTC)Not to mention the apparent "cameos" in American Gods by characters from Sandman (the only one I caught was Delerium and Barnabas in San Francisco)...
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 10:30 pm (UTC)Dammit, I really want to read it again, now. If only I knew where my copy was...
no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 11:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-27 10:32 pm (UTC)I don't know. I thought that the fact he was forgettable was really important, and I thought that would feature in a myth somewhere. *shrugs* I'm completely at sea.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-09 05:32 pm (UTC)