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changelingI'm going to be defriended by every American on my friends list for this, aren't I...? <-- Whee, paranoia. Honestly, I love all you guys.
Speaking from a purely stereotypically Australian standpoint (rather than my own, which is more complex), we're proud of our country too. We're just more introverted about it, and we feel that Americans' love of their country is a little showy. We keeps ourselves to ourselves, sort of thing.[/okker] (Must be our British roots.)
Where America had the Amerindians to make their frontier lives hard, we had Kooris, most of whom our (white) population managed to murder, or kill by way of introduced diseases like the common cold, or further down the line, alcoholism. Both of our countries' white populations has blood on our hands, and there's nothing much either of us as individuals can do about it now. (Although John Howard saying Sorry would HELP improve relations.) Both of us have downtrodden native populations living on the fringes of society. You guys put Amerindians on Reservations, we had the Stolen Generation, where thousands of Koori kids were taken from their parents; some where put into schools and trained up as servants, some grew up in white houses, dislocated from their own pasts, families and sense of identity. Our governments could help improve lives for those not privileged, but our governments are run by privileged white men, and they're more interested in keeping the them downtrodden.
You may have built your country from the ground up, but so did Australia, essentially. The trip from England to the US is considerably shorter than that to Australia - such an uncivilised land, too! - and the help we have traditionally gotten from England has often been minimal at best. We didn't have France giving us even two fingers(1) because they knew it would piss off the British. We're always the younger sibling in world affairs - to England, and lately to the US. They'll accept our help, but it's rarely that we're taken seriously. We're just the tagalongs.
'On the evening of Sunday 3 September 1939, Prime Minister Menzies announced to Australians gathered anxiously around their wireless sets: "It is my melancholy duty to inform you officially that, in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war." The British Prime Minister, Chamberlain, had broadcast Britain's declaration of war an hour earlier.' - War & Peace, Australia 1939-49.
You guys had difficulty with finding your own path, perhaps, but we also had it difficult in a different way - that of trying to be part of the UK and/or Europe from thousands of miles away. Within an hour of Chamberlain announcing WW2, we were right in their with them. We sent thousands of our young men, food and supplies to Europe to help fight a war that didn't have anything to do with us. In WW1, in an almost characteristically careless move by British officers, a group of soldiers consisting in large numbers of Australian troops landed on the beach at Gallipoli, a short way up the coast from where they should have been, and were more or less massacred.
When Pearl Harbour was bombed in December 1941, America was drawn into the war with more or less its full troops. Australia was drawn into a new war, with most of its armed forces in the Middle East, its navy scattered on the seas, and its airforce in training on their way to England. Once again we had to look to a larger country to look after us, and this time we turned to you. England was busy, and didn't have any forces to spare. When the Singapore fortress fell, the last bastion of British might we could rely on in Asia, 15,000 Australian troops were taken prisoner of war attacks. Darwin was bombed, and we had to face the fact of seemingly almost inevitable invasion.
In the end, Australia has the enormous problem of being large enough to qualify for the world stage in a way that New Zealand doesn't have to worry about (their far more sensible PM ignored the whole War-on-Iraq thing), but too small to really make enough of a splash. Around 50% (2) of our country is virtually unlivable, which means that any population growth almost inevitably takes over our arable land. Without some sort of utopian turning-the-desert-green future, Australia's population can't really expand large enough to be much of a competitor on the world stage the way the US is. You have a population of more than 281 million; we have a population of just under 20 million - and yet the actual land mass of our two countries is not all that different, it's just that our population is concentrated almost entirely on the east coast, with another couple small population bursts on the west coast around Perth, and the south coast around Adelaide. Perth can boast of the fact that it's the most isolated capital city in the world; cut off from the bustling east coast by expanse upon expanse of open desert.
We're still the younger siblings in world politics, and some of us rail bitterly against our older brothers and sisters, who have abandoned us repeatedly when they didn't need us. When Howard came over to the US to talk to one of your government bodies (I forget whether it was Congress or the Senate), most representatives didn't bother showing up.
It's very frustrating for me (for all of us) when Americans assume that you guys are the centre of our universe; I had some fuckknuckle on a community I was in saying that she measured intelligence as to whether the person she was speaking to knew about the McCarthy Trials. How about the Eureka Stockade? Gough Whitlam? Does anyone outside Australia know that we havefive six (3) states and two territories? Could they name them, and their capital cities? How about Burke and Wills, arguably our two most famous explorers? It seems very easy for Americans to assume the opposite, that we know all about you. I keep getting those two letter codes for American states thrown at me, and I can guess at a few of them, but that's about it. I never did American history at school (my sister did, because she had an ex-pat American for a teacher); I barely did Australian. All we learnt was about our involvement in the two world wars; obviously nothing Australia does that doesn't involve the outside world isn't important. You guys had Martin Luther King, but does anyone know about Eddie Mabo? (4) If we want to fit in with Americans, is the unspoken rule, we have to learn about your culture. We have to be assimilated with you, until (like in Jennifer Government) we are the United States of America (Australian territories). I know how long a foot is, and how long an inch is. I convert my measurements from metric to imperial for Americans, but the reverse is never true. It can be hard for us, perpetually playing catchup.
(1) I've been reading my copy of The Annotated Alice recently, and this is an old (I think specifically British) custom, where a snobbish upper-class man would give you two fingers to shake rather than his whole hand, to show he was superior to you.
(2) Statistic shamelessly made up rather than look up the actual fact. The real facts are more complex, as our level of desert would be much, much lower than this, but then we have all this semi-arid region where the cattle/sheep stations are hundreds of square kilometres, with each cow needs a several-square-kilometre grazing area, as there's bugger-all vegetation. I asked my parents if they knew how much of our country was desert, and dad said maybe a third. I seem to remember the desert colours on my school maps as taking up most of the country.
(3) Well done me with this clever error. Let's not work out how many there are, let's rely on dubious primary school information!
When I was in PS, we got told about the large star on our flag, the one directly under the Union Jack. It has seven arms on it, and each one stands for a state or territory; one for each of the states, plus one to represent both territories. I just didn't remember that the territories shared a point.
(4) Note to self, don't ever assume Encarta has correct first name for Aboriginal leaders again. Stupid thing.
Ah yes, continuing a great me tradition by using my vague (rather than explicit) knowledge of a broad range of topics to rant from the rooftops, often overlooking several important facts or logic.
Speaking from a purely stereotypically Australian standpoint (rather than my own, which is more complex), we're proud of our country too. We're just more introverted about it, and we feel that Americans' love of their country is a little showy. We keeps ourselves to ourselves, sort of thing.[/okker] (Must be our British roots.)
Where America had the Amerindians to make their frontier lives hard, we had Kooris, most of whom our (white) population managed to murder, or kill by way of introduced diseases like the common cold, or further down the line, alcoholism. Both of our countries' white populations has blood on our hands, and there's nothing much either of us as individuals can do about it now. (Although John Howard saying Sorry would HELP improve relations.) Both of us have downtrodden native populations living on the fringes of society. You guys put Amerindians on Reservations, we had the Stolen Generation, where thousands of Koori kids were taken from their parents; some where put into schools and trained up as servants, some grew up in white houses, dislocated from their own pasts, families and sense of identity. Our governments could help improve lives for those not privileged, but our governments are run by privileged white men, and they're more interested in keeping the them downtrodden.
You may have built your country from the ground up, but so did Australia, essentially. The trip from England to the US is considerably shorter than that to Australia - such an uncivilised land, too! - and the help we have traditionally gotten from England has often been minimal at best. We didn't have France giving us even two fingers(1) because they knew it would piss off the British. We're always the younger sibling in world affairs - to England, and lately to the US. They'll accept our help, but it's rarely that we're taken seriously. We're just the tagalongs.
'On the evening of Sunday 3 September 1939, Prime Minister Menzies announced to Australians gathered anxiously around their wireless sets: "It is my melancholy duty to inform you officially that, in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war." The British Prime Minister, Chamberlain, had broadcast Britain's declaration of war an hour earlier.' - War & Peace, Australia 1939-49.
You guys had difficulty with finding your own path, perhaps, but we also had it difficult in a different way - that of trying to be part of the UK and/or Europe from thousands of miles away. Within an hour of Chamberlain announcing WW2, we were right in their with them. We sent thousands of our young men, food and supplies to Europe to help fight a war that didn't have anything to do with us. In WW1, in an almost characteristically careless move by British officers, a group of soldiers consisting in large numbers of Australian troops landed on the beach at Gallipoli, a short way up the coast from where they should have been, and were more or less massacred.
When Pearl Harbour was bombed in December 1941, America was drawn into the war with more or less its full troops. Australia was drawn into a new war, with most of its armed forces in the Middle East, its navy scattered on the seas, and its airforce in training on their way to England. Once again we had to look to a larger country to look after us, and this time we turned to you. England was busy, and didn't have any forces to spare. When the Singapore fortress fell, the last bastion of British might we could rely on in Asia, 15,000 Australian troops were taken prisoner of war attacks. Darwin was bombed, and we had to face the fact of seemingly almost inevitable invasion.
In the end, Australia has the enormous problem of being large enough to qualify for the world stage in a way that New Zealand doesn't have to worry about (their far more sensible PM ignored the whole War-on-Iraq thing), but too small to really make enough of a splash. Around 50% (2) of our country is virtually unlivable, which means that any population growth almost inevitably takes over our arable land. Without some sort of utopian turning-the-desert-green future, Australia's population can't really expand large enough to be much of a competitor on the world stage the way the US is. You have a population of more than 281 million; we have a population of just under 20 million - and yet the actual land mass of our two countries is not all that different, it's just that our population is concentrated almost entirely on the east coast, with another couple small population bursts on the west coast around Perth, and the south coast around Adelaide. Perth can boast of the fact that it's the most isolated capital city in the world; cut off from the bustling east coast by expanse upon expanse of open desert.
We're still the younger siblings in world politics, and some of us rail bitterly against our older brothers and sisters, who have abandoned us repeatedly when they didn't need us. When Howard came over to the US to talk to one of your government bodies (I forget whether it was Congress or the Senate), most representatives didn't bother showing up.
It's very frustrating for me (for all of us) when Americans assume that you guys are the centre of our universe; I had some fuckknuckle on a community I was in saying that she measured intelligence as to whether the person she was speaking to knew about the McCarthy Trials. How about the Eureka Stockade? Gough Whitlam? Does anyone outside Australia know that we have
(1) I've been reading my copy of The Annotated Alice recently, and this is an old (I think specifically British) custom, where a snobbish upper-class man would give you two fingers to shake rather than his whole hand, to show he was superior to you.
(2) Statistic shamelessly made up rather than look up the actual fact. The real facts are more complex, as our level of desert would be much, much lower than this, but then we have all this semi-arid region where the cattle/sheep stations are hundreds of square kilometres, with each cow needs a several-square-kilometre grazing area, as there's bugger-all vegetation. I asked my parents if they knew how much of our country was desert, and dad said maybe a third. I seem to remember the desert colours on my school maps as taking up most of the country.
(3) Well done me with this clever error. Let's not work out how many there are, let's rely on dubious primary school information!
When I was in PS, we got told about the large star on our flag, the one directly under the Union Jack. It has seven arms on it, and each one stands for a state or territory; one for each of the states, plus one to represent both territories. I just didn't remember that the territories shared a point.
(4) Note to self, don't ever assume Encarta has correct first name for Aboriginal leaders again. Stupid thing.
Ah yes, continuing a great me tradition by using my vague (rather than explicit) knowledge of a broad range of topics to rant from the rooftops, often overlooking several important facts or logic.
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 08:15 pm (UTC)I'll spare you the Canadian version of this. Just take yours, add in really lots of coldness, French people and Loyalist refugees.
Technically, the American Goverment owes me in excess of a trillion dollars.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 08:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 08:37 pm (UTC)Umm - WA, SA, Vic, Qld, NSW, Tas = 6
But other than that *applause*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 08:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 08:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 08:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:06 pm (UTC)'Course, it helps that you gave us the wonder of Three Dead Trolls In A Baggie. *wanders off singing the Canada song*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:11 pm (UTC)I think it's less an argument than it is trying to be understood. I tend to be slightly more attacky than I mean to be sometimes. :)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:14 pm (UTC)*sings* Jesus' brother Bob, Jesus' brother Bob...
If you like those two, you'd love Australia's musical comedy trio, Tripod. You can download a whole lot of songs-in-an-hour they do for Triple J here, amidst other Breakfast show interviews and whatnot. I also highly recommend Tom Gleeson's "United States Of Australia", on the same page. Tripod have a huge catalogue of more polished songs, some of which are published on CD. You can find those on KaZaA (not that I'm encouraging music piracy... *whistles*). I'd recommend "Ikea", "Cuckold", and "I Hate Your Family".
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:37 pm (UTC)On the other hand, my grandfather was in PNG during World War Two, and when I can pick up his book and not feel waves of emotion which pretty much stop me from keeping on reading, I'll know more about everything from the Kokoda Trail to their company's almost lone success in using native assistance and guerrilla tactics to hold off the overwhelming Japanese forces... just as an aside to your WWII points.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:37 pm (UTC)NZ= part of Sydney eh;)?
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:40 pm (UTC)Actually we didn't ignore it. We actually said we wouldn't be involved. You can imagine the opposition (though how you are supposed to have an opposition with MMP I don't know....) had a field day.
ANd we'vew "paid". Though to be honest I don't think we would ever have the right trade talks even if we didn't oppose the war.
We did offer SAS I think.. for "intelligence" as opposed to brute force...
But that of course isn't good enough.
As a small western country we simply are not big enough to give what's expected and what we can is underappreciated in the current climate.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-13 09:46 pm (UTC)