And as in fannish thought she stood...
Dec. 7th, 2002 02:39 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
changeling*cough* Draco Veritas Chapter 11 has come out. I've tried to avoid overt spoilers, but if you haven't read it yet, you may get a vague idea about the actual chapter. Go read it now if you're worried. Overt spoilers will be lj-cut.
Riddle me this:
How come a boy can use a kiss as a weapon if he's kissing a girl, but not if he's kissing a guy?
Since when is a patently evil character's opinions a good insight into the author's stance on homosexuality?
"I don't suppose these are side effects along the lines of 'fortuitous ability to conduct a light opera in French'?"
This has to be a veiled reference to Blackadder the Third...let me find the exact quote...:
Blackadder: Le Comte de Frou Frou, I believe. Do you speak English?
Frou Frou: A little.
Blackadder: Yes - when you say a little, what exactly do you mean? Can we talk or are we going to spend the rest of the afternoon asking each other the way to the beach in very loud voices?
Frou Frou: Oh, no - I can order coffee, deal with waiters, make sexy chit-chat with girls, that type of thing.
Blackadder: Oh, good.
Frou Frou: Just don't ask me to take a physiology class or direct a light opera.
People should check the dictionary if they're not sure if they're using the right word...
"...the character about whom we learned the most was Blaise, which I'm glad for. It was about time she got flushed out."
I think you mean fleshed out, old chap.
I am the assassin against whom no lock can hold.
This is not a quote unique to the Draco Trilogy, of course. I've come across it in Discworld, so it's probably from something else. My money's on Tennyson. He was a depressing bastard. Google's being a t00b, so I can't verify this. It's only pulling up Draco Veritas 2.
Just reading on in the same Blackadder episode (Nob and Nobility, in case you're wondering) and I found a quote that I remember Cassie uses earlier (but don't ask where... I think it's somewhere in Sinister)
Blackadder: ...I want to be young and wild, and then I want to be middle aged and rich, and then I want to be old and annoy people by pretending I'm deaf.
It's a Draco quote, of course. He may be mostly Spikeish in his smartarse comments, but there's a certain amount of Blackadderness there as well.
(lavenderoracle here)
And, I think that it is homophobic if not hypocritical to have a slashy subtext, encourages slashers, and then write an anti-slash chapter. And that was the second reason I was offended.
I'm a slasher, and I didn't find this chapter to be anti-slash. Cassie's written alternate slash versions of DT herself. She's written other H/D slash fics. I really think you're overreacting.
And in the post itself:
A triumph, indeed. Thank you, Cassandra Claire, for making the DV slashers the instruments of destruction of the one thing they wanted--Harry and Draco being together. Thank you for showing how homosexuality can destory [sic] friendship.
How did Cassie show that homosexuality destroys friendship? Did we read the same chapter? Because the way I remember the chapter ending, it says this:
"Hit me," Harry said. "If you want to hit me, hit me. If it'll make you feel better --"
"I feel fine," Draco said. He looked down at his hand, where it rested against Harry`s chest. "You always have to make such a big deal out of everything," he said, and then he did exactly the last thing Harry would ever have expected, and leaned across the small space that separated them, and kissed Harry on the mouth.
Nowhere does it show the aftermath. How do we know their relationship is ruined? They may just tear each other's clothes off and shag each other senseless on the cobblestones. We don't know.
Cassie has a lot of interesting things to say about DV11. She left a lot of interesting comments on this post, including this bit:
As for the business about Tom Riddle being homophobic -- if you think a boy brought up in the thirties, raised in conservative Muggle orphanages, a boy who's already a racist as far the wizarding world goes, ISN'T likely to be a homophobe, then I'd like to know where you buy your drugs, because I want some.
Also this, from the same comment:
I have to ask: How is it that I have a responsibility towards slashers, any slashers? How is it that I have a responsibility to them that extends beyond my responsibility to any other shippers of my fic, or any other readers? Would you say this to any other fanfic author? Would you, honestly? I'd like to know.
I don't believe that an author's responsibility towards hir readers extends beyond the responsibility to tell a good story. Sandra has come under fire repeatedly from her "fans" for a perceived responsibility to make their ships/fantasies come to pass. That's not the author's responsibility. If you want that, go off and write fan fiction for yourself. No amount of whinging about Shakespeare's "responsibilities" towards his punters would make Romeo and Juliet end happily. To quote Oscar Wilde, ...a book is well written, or it is badly written. That is all. That was in response to the outcry that his work was immoral (it's from the introduction to The Picture of Dorian Gray, and may be slightly different, as I have mislaid my copy of Wilde, but I sincerely doubt it. I'm pretty good with quotes.)
Dictating to a writer what he or she may or may not write does very little except make them irritated and determined to do the opposite - note especially the Skids Chair(TM) that appeared in Sandra's journal, or the Skids/Steve Buscemi sketch.
Not only all this, but people whinged about the fact that Cassie often couldn't explain herself because it would mean a spoiler. FERCRYINGOUTLOUD!
Often a character's attitudes and/or motivations are ambiguous. It prescribes a sense of MYSTERY and SUSPENSE to the tale. It makes it DIFFICULT TO PREDICT. It's possibly too much League of Extraordinary Gentlemen that's got me talking in VICTORIAN CAPITALS.
If I were to finish and put up The Novel(TM) online like Sandra does for Narcolepsy, there'd be a lot of stuff left unexplained and open to interpretation because it would give away important plot points. I play everything close to my chest - sometimes excessively so, I think. People in my writing class thought that I was referencing the gay community when I was talking about the magical community in chapter one (mind you, Arts students, particularly English-focused ones, tend to heavily deconstruct everything).
I'm reading further on in the comments in that post of lavenderoracle's, and people are getting narky about the fact that people posted comments showing different views to LO.
Isn't that what comments are there for? Now I'm completely bewildered. At no stage was Cassie or anyone else trying to bully lavenderoracle (damn I wish she had a shorter handle) into their perspective, but rather showing their perspective and trying to give LO a broader view of the argument, so to speak. If someone misunderstood my intentions in The Novel(TM) or Wackiness, you could be sure I'd be desperately trying to set them straight. I hate being misrepresented; everyone does (unless it's in a flattering light, I suppose).
From Heidi:
And furthermore, if Cassie hadn't discussed this with her, would people now be slamming her for being aloof and ignoring constructive/reasonable criticisms? It's a no-win situation, that.
As soon as someone doesn't bother to deny an allegation (in this case, that Cassie is homophobic and/or bitching about slash and slashers), everyone immediately assumes it's true. If Cassie tries to deny it...suddenly she's a bitch who's trying to force her opinion on everyone.
It's also daft that people say that LO's journal was invaded, that she was "ganged up on". No one was being nasty; they were all on their best behaviour. Consider it, instead, as Parliamentary Questioning Time, but without the rabid weasels being thrown at the Speaker.
Ha, bet you wish you watched Parliamentary Questioning Time now, eh?
This has been a Delirieuse coverage of a fandom war. Please tune in again for the next exciting installment.
By the way, Chris, if you're reading (which I doubt considering this covers fandomy stuff), I can't log in to your FTP at the moment, and I'm using the icewind? icehart? addressy thing, as it's saved in ws_ftp.
Riddle me this:
How come a boy can use a kiss as a weapon if he's kissing a girl, but not if he's kissing a guy?
Since when is a patently evil character's opinions a good insight into the author's stance on homosexuality?
"I don't suppose these are side effects along the lines of 'fortuitous ability to conduct a light opera in French'?"
This has to be a veiled reference to Blackadder the Third...let me find the exact quote...:
Blackadder: Le Comte de Frou Frou, I believe. Do you speak English?
Frou Frou: A little.
Blackadder: Yes - when you say a little, what exactly do you mean? Can we talk or are we going to spend the rest of the afternoon asking each other the way to the beach in very loud voices?
Frou Frou: Oh, no - I can order coffee, deal with waiters, make sexy chit-chat with girls, that type of thing.
Blackadder: Oh, good.
Frou Frou: Just don't ask me to take a physiology class or direct a light opera.
People should check the dictionary if they're not sure if they're using the right word...
"...the character about whom we learned the most was Blaise, which I'm glad for. It was about time she got flushed out."
I think you mean fleshed out, old chap.
I am the assassin against whom no lock can hold.
This is not a quote unique to the Draco Trilogy, of course. I've come across it in Discworld, so it's probably from something else. My money's on Tennyson. He was a depressing bastard. Google's being a t00b, so I can't verify this. It's only pulling up Draco Veritas 2.
Just reading on in the same Blackadder episode (Nob and Nobility, in case you're wondering) and I found a quote that I remember Cassie uses earlier (but don't ask where... I think it's somewhere in Sinister)
Blackadder: ...I want to be young and wild, and then I want to be middle aged and rich, and then I want to be old and annoy people by pretending I'm deaf.
It's a Draco quote, of course. He may be mostly Spikeish in his smartarse comments, but there's a certain amount of Blackadderness there as well.
(lavenderoracle here)
And, I think that it is homophobic if not hypocritical to have a slashy subtext, encourages slashers, and then write an anti-slash chapter. And that was the second reason I was offended.
I'm a slasher, and I didn't find this chapter to be anti-slash. Cassie's written alternate slash versions of DT herself. She's written other H/D slash fics. I really think you're overreacting.
And in the post itself:
A triumph, indeed. Thank you, Cassandra Claire, for making the DV slashers the instruments of destruction of the one thing they wanted--Harry and Draco being together. Thank you for showing how homosexuality can destory [sic] friendship.
How did Cassie show that homosexuality destroys friendship? Did we read the same chapter? Because the way I remember the chapter ending, it says this:
"Hit me," Harry said. "If you want to hit me, hit me. If it'll make you feel better --"
"I feel fine," Draco said. He looked down at his hand, where it rested against Harry`s chest. "You always have to make such a big deal out of everything," he said, and then he did exactly the last thing Harry would ever have expected, and leaned across the small space that separated them, and kissed Harry on the mouth.
Nowhere does it show the aftermath. How do we know their relationship is ruined? They may just tear each other's clothes off and shag each other senseless on the cobblestones. We don't know.
Cassie has a lot of interesting things to say about DV11. She left a lot of interesting comments on this post, including this bit:
As for the business about Tom Riddle being homophobic -- if you think a boy brought up in the thirties, raised in conservative Muggle orphanages, a boy who's already a racist as far the wizarding world goes, ISN'T likely to be a homophobe, then I'd like to know where you buy your drugs, because I want some.
Also this, from the same comment:
I have to ask: How is it that I have a responsibility towards slashers, any slashers? How is it that I have a responsibility to them that extends beyond my responsibility to any other shippers of my fic, or any other readers? Would you say this to any other fanfic author? Would you, honestly? I'd like to know.
I don't believe that an author's responsibility towards hir readers extends beyond the responsibility to tell a good story. Sandra has come under fire repeatedly from her "fans" for a perceived responsibility to make their ships/fantasies come to pass. That's not the author's responsibility. If you want that, go off and write fan fiction for yourself. No amount of whinging about Shakespeare's "responsibilities" towards his punters would make Romeo and Juliet end happily. To quote Oscar Wilde, ...a book is well written, or it is badly written. That is all. That was in response to the outcry that his work was immoral (it's from the introduction to The Picture of Dorian Gray, and may be slightly different, as I have mislaid my copy of Wilde, but I sincerely doubt it. I'm pretty good with quotes.)
Dictating to a writer what he or she may or may not write does very little except make them irritated and determined to do the opposite - note especially the Skids Chair(TM) that appeared in Sandra's journal, or the Skids/Steve Buscemi sketch.
Not only all this, but people whinged about the fact that Cassie often couldn't explain herself because it would mean a spoiler. FERCRYINGOUTLOUD!
Often a character's attitudes and/or motivations are ambiguous. It prescribes a sense of MYSTERY and SUSPENSE to the tale. It makes it DIFFICULT TO PREDICT. It's possibly too much League of Extraordinary Gentlemen that's got me talking in VICTORIAN CAPITALS.
If I were to finish and put up The Novel(TM) online like Sandra does for Narcolepsy, there'd be a lot of stuff left unexplained and open to interpretation because it would give away important plot points. I play everything close to my chest - sometimes excessively so, I think. People in my writing class thought that I was referencing the gay community when I was talking about the magical community in chapter one (mind you, Arts students, particularly English-focused ones, tend to heavily deconstruct everything).
I'm reading further on in the comments in that post of lavenderoracle's, and people are getting narky about the fact that people posted comments showing different views to LO.
Isn't that what comments are there for? Now I'm completely bewildered. At no stage was Cassie or anyone else trying to bully lavenderoracle (damn I wish she had a shorter handle) into their perspective, but rather showing their perspective and trying to give LO a broader view of the argument, so to speak. If someone misunderstood my intentions in The Novel(TM) or Wackiness, you could be sure I'd be desperately trying to set them straight. I hate being misrepresented; everyone does (unless it's in a flattering light, I suppose).
From Heidi:
And furthermore, if Cassie hadn't discussed this with her, would people now be slamming her for being aloof and ignoring constructive/reasonable criticisms? It's a no-win situation, that.
As soon as someone doesn't bother to deny an allegation (in this case, that Cassie is homophobic and/or bitching about slash and slashers), everyone immediately assumes it's true. If Cassie tries to deny it...suddenly she's a bitch who's trying to force her opinion on everyone.
It's also daft that people say that LO's journal was invaded, that she was "ganged up on". No one was being nasty; they were all on their best behaviour. Consider it, instead, as Parliamentary Questioning Time, but without the rabid weasels being thrown at the Speaker.
Ha, bet you wish you watched Parliamentary Questioning Time now, eh?
This has been a Delirieuse coverage of a fandom war. Please tune in again for the next exciting installment.
By the way, Chris, if you're reading (which I doubt considering this covers fandomy stuff), I can't log in to your FTP at the moment, and I'm using the icewind? icehart? addressy thing, as it's saved in ws_ftp.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2002-12-06 07:55 am (UTC)I fall somewhere in the middle, since my fiction doesn't even concentrate on the pairing so much as it does telling an actual story.
no subject
Date: 2002-12-06 09:13 am (UTC)I haven't written huge amounts of fanfic, I'm afraid. I tend to get a bit anal-retentive and afraid I won't be true enough to canon... I do read a reasonable amount of fic, though (BMB and Harry Potter primarily, but practically anything well-written will get me to read it. I've read Mobile Suit Gundam Wing slash without having seen the series or read any of the manga), and have my pet peeves as anyone with a good grasp of English and story-telling abilities does. ^_^
Maybe I'll crosspost this to
no subject
Date: 2002-12-06 08:02 am (UTC)***
Dictating to a writer what he or she may or may not write does very little except make them irritated and determined to do the opposite - note especially the Skids Chair(TM) that appeared in Sandra's journal, or the Skids/Steve Buscemi sketch.
I [heart] doing that. The only problem is that I think people have started to figure it out. I got a really badly written letter in netspeak the other day that begged me to never put cy and skids together. Had to be a fake.
no subject
Date: 2002-12-06 09:06 am (UTC)*grins* Agreed. It's tremendous fun.
Ah - those fandom wenches are getting cunning.
*claps*
Date: 2002-12-06 01:12 pm (UTC)Re: *claps*
Date: 2002-12-06 09:59 pm (UTC)